What this image shows is 20 minutes of recording of the airspace before and after the shooting down of MH17. The course of MH17 is shown in purple while the numerous little blue "T" shaped objects in the circle show the radar return of one or, possibly two, aircraft which either do not have a transponder or which have not switched it on. Either way, since we know that the Novorussian Resistance did not have aircraft, and since we know that the Ukrainians have denied that they had any aircraft anywhere near this area at that time, and since we know that had this been a Russian aircraft the US/NATO AWACS and satellites would have picked it up and presented this damning proof a long time ago we can come to the only possible conclusion: the Ukies and their US/EU patrons are lying, the aircraft seen on the radar are Ukrainian, no Buk missile was involved in the shooting (though I personally believe that one was used to cue the Ukrainian aircraft to MH17) and that MH17 was shot down by a combo of gun and missile fire from one or two Ukrainian aircraft.
The Saker
PS: by the way, if a civilian radar needs a return signal from a transponder to get the identity, altitude and speed of an aircraft, military radars do not. Since I am quite sure that the Russians also had plenty of military radars in the region, I am equally sure that, just as the US and NATO, the Russian military also has the ironclad proof that the Ukies did it in the form of radar track recordings. Whether they will ever present such proof or not (and I am sure that they would prefer not to) or whether they will only generate such "leaks" from civilian sources as the one today in MK instead is unclear to me. I guess it depends on what the AngloZionist propaganda says.
Hi Saker
ReplyDeleteOmar Shishani [Omar the Chechen] and the White Widow have been reported dead.
The implication in the SOTT article is that they were US assets, now dead, and possible message this may be sending to the US
http://www.sott.net/article/288922-Chechen-Islamic-State-commander-dead-according-to-Chechen-leader
http://www.sott.net/article/288897-Reality-creators-last-episode-of-White-Widow-Allegedly-she-was-shot-dead-in-Ukraine
oh, about the screenshot I am already seen a media report that this does not mean the Ukrainians did it, because it probably wasn't their plane, etc.
Sigh.
Erika
This adds to the accumulating mountain of evidence that a Ukrainian warplane perpetrated the shooting down of MH17. It is puzzling that Russia and Novorossia have not more effectively accumulated all this and more forcefully articulated the case. For example, there are plenty of international forums where Russian authorities could hammer the EU, U.S. and Ukraine. They could also openly challenge western 'media' to host debate. They could rally supporters outside the region to aggressively speak out, arming them with the facts. Saker is the best but you deserve more competent and determined support from co-thinkers and colleagues.
ReplyDeleteThis adds to the accumulating mountain of evidence that a Ukrainian warplane perpetrated the shooting down of MH17. It is puzzling that Russia and Novorossia have not more effectively accumulated all this and more forcefully articulated the case. For example, there are plenty of international forums where Russian authorities could hammer the EU, U.S. and Ukraine. They could also openly challenge western 'media' to host debate. They could rally supporters outside the region to aggressively speak out, arming them with the facts. Saker is the best but you deserve more competent and determined support from co-thinkers and colleagues.
ReplyDeleteThis adds to the accumulating mountain of evidence that a Ukrainian warplane perpetrated the shooting down of MH17. It is puzzling that Russia and Novorossia have not more effectively accumulated all this and more forcefully articulated the case. For example, there are plenty of international forums where Russian authorities could hammer the EU, U.S. and Ukraine. They could also openly challenge western 'media' to host debate. They could rally supporters outside the region to aggressively speak out, arming them with the facts. Saker is the best but you deserve more competent and determined support from co-thinkers and colleagues.
ReplyDeleteIf the Russian military has radar evidence, what would be their reason for not sharing it?
ReplyDeleteIS this anything additional to what the Russians presented on the sunday after the crash? It seems pretty much the same to me.
ReplyDeleteAssume the Russian know and can prove it. And assume there is proof of US complicity - at least in the cover up and post crash immediate PR which happened a little too quickly IMO for it not to have been "expected" somehow.
If Russia/Putin cared about US lies and his/its reputation in the west all would have been revealed long ago. But we know in fact that teh US desperately cares about PR and Putin has votes to spare, so he can keep this for later or trade it.
Trade it I guess - The EU and US both want an exit from Ukraine. If the story was confirmed they'd probably be stuck having to justify their stupidity to date.
Or it might get used for regime change in Ukraine, but right now it would just be one bunch of nazi losers replaced by another. As the US have shown but not learnt, the time to set off regime change is when an acceptable alternative is in place to take over.
Will very interesting for sure and there must be screen shots of the fighters leaving the area some were. I do doubt Ukraine pilots were in the planes because this is some great flying and they don't have the air time.
ReplyDeleteThis also comes at great time as the so-called world leaders meet in China then G-20.
???? "The planes involved in the attack didn’t take off from Ukrainian bases but rather from Romania and were seen entering radar near an America air base.
ReplyDeleteMSNBC had been using radar-driven plane tracking websites to sell their version of the downing of flight MA17, one American military satellite imagery has debunked, not only based on the 25 mile debris field but imagery that identifies all missile operations in the region as controlled by the Kiev junta." http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/08/02/mystery-bombing-runs-over-ukraine/
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1897094.html
ReplyDeletephotos of cockpit, re gunfire etc here, needs translation-sorry guys- also good technical discussion on RI comments section in article from here http://russia-insider.com/en/military_media_watch/2014/11/12/11-48-09am/mh17_witnesses_tell_bbc_they_saw_ukrainian_jet_bbc
incl from Phillip Owen and with author "Byzantium"(ignore some **** comments)
Either Russia knows and the Americans do
ReplyDeleteor they both know or they both don't know.
Or perhaps there is no 'they.'
And perhaps if there is - neither cares much for in the coming war - 263 dead in a plane crash or whatever will just be part of the new normal.
But if They both know - the top Generals and shakers on either side and they are determined to get justice and make the guilty pay - who is currently, is there anyone, seemingly in the process of gradually letting some truth out - in order to sabotage something. The 'something' of course being the G20 summit in Australia. Is there really a Russian squad of ships heading to Oz? It could be that Russai has had proof all along but is biding its time has been biding its time to pick the right moment to drop a 'truth bomb' on the G20 summit? May be this leak is linked to that somehow....
I for one am sick and tired of Russia holding out on evidence, if they have it. What the hell are they waiting for ? We need to stop making excuses for their inaction. All they need to do, is go to the UN and demand that the black box, and control tower information, from the Ukraine, be presented immediately. Also, I'm sure they know exactly who, and how, pulled off the events on 9/11. Why not release that information ? I believe that would cause a near civil war in the US, which would effectively render it useless in the Geo-political arena. I'm open to other people's theories, but this game Putin is playing is getting very tiresome.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteSTRATFOR, hardly a true news outlet so believe it or not.
However, the rumored choice for Kolokoltsev's replacement points to an even more important and dangerous struggle involving Putin. Leaks to the Russian media have indicated that First Deputy Interior Minister Viktor Zolotov will be chosen as Kolokoltsev's replacement. Though Zolotov is already in the Interior Ministry, he is also the former head of the Federal Protective Service, Putin's personal security detail that is the Russian version of the U.S. Secret Service. Zolotov was the personal bodyguard of Putin's mentor, Anatoly Sobchak, in St. Petersburg, where he met Putin. Zolotov is directly loyal to Putin and not part of the other security circles in the Kremlin.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article48186.html
The map shown is too apocryphal to value it as evidence.
ReplyDeleteIsn't there likewise this map, footage of the USA Satellite stationed above the crash-area?
That would make the Not-Evidence of the West more burdened?
If there is such (visual) information it should put on the table to prevent the extinction of the human race.
Such Great timing for the G20 meeting.
ReplyDeleteGet the popcorn ready.
The RF Military and Mr. Putin will keep their silence until push comes to shove. They will wait until the Official M17 report is released and fill in the holes. Or, if Tony Abbott continues to make a fool of himself to embarrass Mr. Putin.
Silence and Patience are pure gold.
(Mr. Putin to Tony Abbott: “We will wait, we know how”)
Tony publicly promised to "front-shirt" Mr. Putin and demand an apology because the Russian- backed separatists in East Ukraine brought down the airliner.
Before the G20 meeting commences next week an email with this screen shot should be forwarded to Tony.
Once it's established MH17 was shot down by a jet or two, the MSM will simply blame the Russian Air Force.
ReplyDeleteWhy the russians hold their data back?
ReplyDeleteInformation war is similar to war. Use your troops/informations when you get the most advance out of it. At the moment the Ukrainians and their advisors probably fear the trump card in the russian hand. We can be sure russians will play it in the most unpleasant moment for them. Furthermore the more time will elapse the more urgent questions will arise why nobody in the West asked the russians to deliver their records? Did they ask? Maybe I’m wrong, but I’ve never heard about that …
@ Anon
ReplyDeleteI for one am sick and tired of Russia holding out on evidence, if they have it
Well they just released what they have, haven't they?
What else are the supposed to release? They don't have the cockpit voice recordings, or the American satellite and radar data, or the air traffic control recordings.
I am really curious to know the reasons why The Saker believes the Russians would prefer not to reveal proof of innocence of either the Russians or Novorossians in downing MH17???
ReplyDeleteWho or what are they protecting?
It is blindingly obvious from pictures taken immediately after the crash that the MH17 cockpit area has round cannon shell holes in it. Shrapnel would not show this kind of pattern. Debris from the wreckage would show definitively whether it was missile fragements or cannon shells -or both. There is the Russian demo of the SU-25 giving a ground target aircraft a burst -and round holes.
As a huge BUK missile has an enormous smoke trail and makes a lot of racket that none of the eyewitnesses saw or heard, it makes this very unlikely. It also is designed to explode above the target aircraft and would show elongated diamond shaped tears in the fuselage and wings, not round holes.
As ever patience is a virtue.
ReplyDeleteIn due course the wave files might be interesting.
Some lack of manners though, sometimes asking questions is not polite.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
If the Russian military has radar evidence, what would be their reason for not sharing it?
13 November, 2014 21:34
Russia does not want the world to know about its radar capabilities and neither does the US.
Take a look at some of the US satellite pictures published in the media during this conflict. My take is the US, Russia and some other countries have access to much better pictures.
As a warning, Russia lately has made known some of the countrys capabilities. I think in particular of the blinding of US Donald Cook in the Black Sea, the revelation about how Khaddafi was killed with the help of US intelligence and how Russia from a Syrian port could monitor NATO ships in the Western Mediterranean Sea. I suspect one of the reasons for NATO:s bad mood is that it has encountered technology it can't rival.
The revelations and the many Russian exercises, some close to the US very soon, are meant as serious warnings. Peace in our time depends on if the Empire can decode the message. I fear not.
I hope Russia will present evidence of Ukrainian culpability during the G20 meeting in Australia, but national security may prevent that. We will soon know.
If the RF openly points a finger, the Western presstitutes will immediately seek technical info to substantiate such a claim. Far better to let the "West" spout its drivel, then rubbish that.
ReplyDeleteDear Saker,french MSM(and maybe other UE/US MSMS also?)going MAD tonight:
ReplyDeleteThey even provide of the next ...NAF invasion,next sunday(lol).
According to...facebook and twitter(my god very reliable sources)
More sanctions ahead from US/UE next week
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2014/11/13/01003-20141113ARTFIG00374-ukraine-les-occidentaux-denoncent-l-escalade-russe.php
Total desinformation..for those who understand french,good to read the comments below the articles,they are 80/20 in favor of NR and Poutine(a few ukies trolls of cause)
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2014/11/13/01003-20141113ARTFIG00418-moscou-agite-la-menace-nucleaire-en-crimee.php
http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2014/11/13/97001-20141113FILWWW00485-hausse-des-vols-militaires-russes-pres-des-usa.php
These 'so called' journalists are real whores,presstitude as Roberts says.
"we can come to the only possible conclusion: the Ukies and their US/EU patrons are lying, the aircraft seen on the radar are Ukrainian"
ReplyDeleteIt would appear that categorical imperatives are being used again.
Good strategist try not to make unfounded extrapolations on limited data, and so patience is wise in such circumstances.
Different hypotheses are possible.
For example.
The Georgian war was "influenced" from bases close to Balchik in Bulgaria, and activity in Romania has been noted.
As to the pilots, on the basis of publicly available information that is even more opaque at this juncture.
This is not to suggest the hypotheses above are valid explanations, but to illustrate the possible lacunae in your logic on presently published information.
what really is relevant is that Putin never once told his enemies even personally that it was very suspicious of england to get hold of black boxes when england is a party to this dispute and accuser number one. still the result was not known for 7 weeks even then final result to eb disclosed in one year.
ReplyDeletePutin never asked why this delay when the same thieves were the first to blame Russia within 2 hours.
also why is Putin talking rubbish general vague things like" hope the investigation finds out about it "
is Putin that idiot or naive?
he seems living in a world of his own and not realizing that he deals with the most viler race in the world the anglosaxon pirates led by the most vile country england which must be sorted out now.
unknown said "For example, there are plenty of international forums where Russian authorities could hammer the EU, U.S. and Ukraine. They could also openly challenge western 'media' to host debate. They could rally supporters outside the region to aggressively speak out, arming them with the facts"
ReplyDeleteexactly
But Russia has a habit of sleeping over problems -that is why she gets attacked again and again and she never learns. what a stupid nation!
How many civilian planes flew over the direct route MH-17 did?
ReplyDeleteWhy are Ukrainian traffic control tapes not made public?
I am somewhat of the opinion this event is an art of manipulation. Days before we have Ukrainian white phosphorus bombing runs burning civilians en masse. Then we have Ukrainian forces bringing Buks all the way up to the front line, making them easy prey for capturing. It was stated the NAF captured a telar. With this scenario why direct a passenger jet and have a couple of ground attack aircraft tail it and what do you have in NAF eyes? A bomber being escorted perhaps. The telar alone cannot distinguish between passenger and military only elevation and some size. With seconds to go and an approaching bomber sized aircraft, what would the US do? You will have to take them to the ICJ, you wont get a direct apology or admission, the perpetrator will get a medal and the victims families a few dollars. Questions have to be raised why this or any flights are directed over war zones, in whose interest is it in?
The Kremlin has known a lot of stuff over the decades they never talk about out loud. They know about Benghazi, they know that Lee Harvey Oswald and Jackie Kennedy shared the same CIA handler, they probably know that J.D. Tippit is buried in JFK's grave and that Lee Harvey Oswald's grave is empty, and they certainly know why Lee Harvey Oswald was sheep-dipped in Moscow in the first place, but they don't talk about it. Don't hold your breath waiting for the Kremlin to expose MH17 either, people, because they are using it, like everything else, for leverage behind the scenes. They know how to keep their mouths shut.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40204.htm
ReplyDeleteSorry, off-topic, but very amusing/interesting. Pepe Escobar interviews Thierry Meyssan on Daesh (ISIS). Perhaps because TM is French he seems to get past US media censorship quicker than others. That is, some stories are carried in foreign press,but not US press.
The extent of the misinformation indoctrination by the Western MSM is such that no matter how convincing Russian evidence regarding Ukrainian culpability may appear to be, it will not be believed.
ReplyDeleteUNKNOWN said "puzzling that Russia and Novorossia have not more effectively accumulated all this and more forcefully articulated the case."
ReplyDeleteUnknown, it is absolutely the RULE w Russia that she refuses to state her case; in fact often states US case! If you read RT you will see that this is the case. On RT there was only ONE interview where US & allies are said to be still supporting ISIS. Initially had it that ISIS completely surprised the US, was totally independent of them. Eventually, both US & RT were forced to admit that the US had once supported them (while they were still moderates). But the emergence of ISIS, according to both US & RT is that it was partically the result of a "mistaken" policy of US.
I am at a loss to explain this behavior by RT. Ukraine and Crimea were an exception to this rule, but imm'y after Minsk, RT again sounds very much like lying MSM media.
Further, RT used to be a great comment site where enormous numbers of people wd tell the truth that RT avoided. Commenters couldn't post links, so they just referred to article titles. That all changed sortly after Minsk, too. Now, nothing really useful escapes censorship, you can't site articles, etc.
The only official Russian site I know of which tells the truth is a journal of the Russian Academy of Sciences called New Eastern Outlook.
Perhaps Kremlin is still trying to keep open the road to rapprochment with the West. Madness! They should be trying to win the info warfare.
Thank you Saker for so much good reading. Happy Birthday!
ReplyDelete@ SanctuaryOne,
ReplyDeleteQ: Who or what are they protecting?
R: You must have missed the Russian side providing ample evidence of what they believe really happened [it's on this web site somewhere].
The fact that you've missed it, means MSM has done a good job.
Also, does the phrase 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't.' ring any bells?
Open up Yahoo and have a look at the onslaught of articles portraying Russian PM, Mr.Putin as the next Genghis Khan, about to sweep through Europe with his massive armies.
Puke factor 11
What do you think about the GEOLOCATING the BUK Missile System, apparently https://www.bellingcat.com/ have posted a few articles that seem to proof a Russian BUK system was inside Ukraine, they debunked the claim of Russian Defense Ministry that the pictures were a Ukie-Buk, claim they are liars, and the same BUK is missing 1 out of 4 Missiles when it left Ukraine...
ReplyDeleteSeems pretty obvious to me.
Please read the geolocating articles, and maybe respond if you care.
BTW, I also read an article debunking the Russian Radar Presentation as total bunk. The guy claims to be a radar system expert and says: there never was a Mig anywhere near MH17 because what the Russians claim to be the Mig was actually MH17's last known position indicator, not a circling plane...
Kolomoiski and his buddies ( Oliynyk, Bereza, Geletei) know much more about shooting Boeing, as these screenshots are showing; Translation included;
ReplyDeletehttp://en.voicesevas.ru/news/analytics/2793-kolomoyskiy-assistants-facebook-account-hacked-the-boeing-downed-by-junta.html
I really don't buy this bit about Russia/USA not wanting to reveal the abilities of their radar.
ReplyDeleteI used to skydive and in addition to freefall liked to pull immediately after jumping out at as high an altitude and distance as possible and go cross-country under canopy.
The amount of metal in a parachute is minimal -a few metal harness links and a thin coiled pilot chute spring in the reserve. Yet I was picked up by civilian airport radar 40 or 50 miles away and a warning given to the jump pilot of a 'close target'. This was decades old radar too. An SU-25, not exactly stealth-like, would show up like a sore thumb on civilian radar.
Now, frequently civilian radar filters out altitude encoding transponder traffic below a certain altitude to reduce 'clutter' and because it is of no consequence to vectoring higher up traffic. But with no transponder beaming back altitude information there'd be no filtering. There'd be radar hit and low tech too.
As for military radars, they'd obviously see a lot more, including height, and I/R satellites should be more than capable of detecting the heat trail from a massive BUK rocket in addition to visual data.
So I'd like to know why Russia didn't immediatey pull the plug on 'The Russians did it!' nonsense. Refutation now is futile.
just the way the US/EU/NATO propaganda state likes it, the damage is done, the vitriol has etched in to the public consciousness and reinforced Russophobic ideology.
And ideology, as we all know, is immune to science and facts.
"Perhaps Kremlin is still trying to keep open the road to rapprochment with the West. Madness! They should be trying to win the info warfare."
ReplyDeletePenelope
I think they are trying to avoid a US first strike. US right wing has never accepted that there isn't a way around mutually assured destruction. That's what Star Wars was about, but they didn't have and failed to develop the necessary technology. And that's what the Ballistic Missile Defense is about.
You've seen a space launch. There are seconds after launch when a missile just sits on its tail of fire and struggles upwards. If your anti-missile is sitting right on top of it with coordinates long since fed in, an ICBM is a sitting duck.
Putin is playing for a neutral Ukraine and avoiding anything that will permanently alienate the population. So, tried to call off Donetsk and Lugansk referenda. Made clear that Russia would refuse a request for accession to Russia, called for humanitarian corridors from the cauldrons, and gave no military assistance. Putin even cracked down on the massive amounts of humanitarian aid that flowed from the Russian population, closing the borders to it.
The natural pull of Russia on Ukraine will still be there if the political situation becomes more normal. Just so long as nothing in this war creates a universal determination to "Never forget. Never forgive."
Remember the dark rumours that Zakharchenko had signed his resignation? Then Zakharchenko went to Russia. After which, Putin changed his tune and stopped pushing Minsk.
I can't see a scenario that puts those things together other than Putin wanting to advance on the Minsk agreement towards disarmament. Zak digs in, says "Let the man try to tell that to my face." Putin emerges from ensuing meeting saying "They believe that if they lay down their arms, they will be murdered. We have to respect that."
Aid begins to flow again. No more sitting waiting for permission and Red Cross escorts, while Poroshenko continues to shell the route and keeps the Red Cross out "for security reasons." Just a prior announcement: "We're coming across your border with 50 trucks in two days." Aid is rumoured to include military aid at long last, although I see no signs of it being used yet.
It is still not impossible to imagine that with Novorossiya still voting in national elections, after assassinations or a coup by the volunteer battalions, the pragmatists may reappear and Putin will get a non-aligned Ukraine.
The world will be a safer place.
All is simple. Kremlin knows everything about MH17 and
ReplyDeleteholds NATO in check before mate, giving them time to fix it. Also keeps trumps in hands for later diplomatic negotiations.
Experiments on dogs found that if we close the dog in a cage and put him on the mat, which constantly receives electric shocks, dog rages, bouncing, moaning, barking, squirming. And when the electric wounds take a long time, so the dog already pityingly just sits there, constantly getting the electric shocks. On dog can see some twitching but do not respond. And then when opens the cage, acts as if the dog did not notice it. She will not lie on the pillow, getting farther electric shock. He learned to be helpless, received his helplessness. And it is unfortunately model, which we note as widespread in our society. Not that we were lying on a pillow and receiving electric shocks, but what we encounter in the media are quite wound. And we're taking it... Getting our environment perceive as normal.
ReplyDeleteWar comes to Kiev
ReplyDeletehttp://actualcomment.ru/nachalo-kontsa-voyna-v-kieve.html
Some of the worst accusations with no proof, hyperbole, distortions and russophobic propaganda I have seen come from the Irish Times.
ReplyDeletee.g.:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/ukraine-crisis/new-battleground-in-donetsk-we-ve-thrown-this-so-called-art-in-the-garbage-bin-1.1987537
"Donetsk is now in the hands of the same group of masked separatists who brought down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17"
Bias anyone?:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/ukraine-crisis
Does anyone know why the Irish Times in particular carries so much foreign content and why it is so virulent?
Dear Saker, On 6 August you posted links to a report by 'cdn' which showed cdn's calculation of a likely launch position if a BUK missile was responsible. The MH17 flight path shown in the preliminary report by the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) in early Sept differs from that used by cdn - the DSB show a path approx. paralllel to cdn's but some distance (at least a few km) further east. It would be useful to have cdn's comment on the DSB report.
ReplyDeleteIn passing, I don't see that the presence of one or more Ukie or other hostile military aircraft in the vicinity of MH17 around the time of the shootdown excludes the use of a BUK. The military 'escort' aircraft could have been there to identify, for the benefit of those on the ground operating the BUK system, which jetliner was to be the BUK's target. However I remain open-minded as to the immediate source of of the shootdown: ground-based missile or aircraft.
my mrs from Crimea is convinced MH17 was shot down on orders from NATO/USA, in order to set up /justify sanctions and start rouble war-consider a Malaysian plane must have been deliberately targeted for maximum"impact' publicity. the wikileaks "conspiracy" articles are actually quite good but do not seem to mention this at a quick glance. Can be proved, by what , how????
ReplyDeletefrom 21 c wire
One very real possibility for MH17 losing being diverted 14km to the left is that its GPS or navigation system was being jammed. US-NATO forces happened to be conducting an electronic warfare exercise in the Black Sea on July 17th (see ‘SEA BREEZE 2014′, below). In addition to this possibility, all Boeing jets (except Germany’s Lufthansa fleet) are equipped with a remote override that can be accessed by authorities in certain foreign countries, one being the United States. Although not publicly acknowledged until recently, Boeing Uninterruptible Autopilot (BUAP) systems have been standard since the late 1990′s, apparently designed to take control of a commercial aircraft away from the pilot or flight crew, chiefly in the event of a terrorist incident.
Another possible explanation for this crucial event in the timeline is that MH17 was hit, or damaged, taking an emergency 180º left turn for 14km, before disappearing completely off of radar. This appears to be the case. On July 23rd, Anna-News published an interview with retired Russian Air Force colonel Aleksand Zhilin (Александр Жилин) a frequent military commentator on Ukraine’s Civil War.
“According to the colonel, at 16:19:45 (local time, and 5:19pm Moscow time), a Ukrainian jet fighter targeted the Boeing with an air-to-air missile R-60. The missile damaged the right engine of the Boeing. The Boeing was hit, but still managed to stay in the air. However, in doing so, the Boeing turned 180 degrees to the left. It was at this moment that the false flag attack started falling apart. According to Zhilin, part of the plan controlled by the US with Ukrainian hands executing it was to have the Boeing crash past the southern frontline by the Ukrainian-Russian border. Had the Boeing fallen there, securing the crash sites with the troops in response to international pressure was on top of all else effectively to allow Kiev to lift the encirclement of its brigades (currently pinned down by rebels) in the southern pocket by the Russian border.”
“When, however, the Boeing started to turn in the opposite direction and was still apparently manageable, the US-Ukrainian headquarters of the special operation panicked and ordered the Buk battery to destroy the plane in the air in order to pre-empt the possibility of the Boeing’s emergency landing. A Buk missile was fired and the plane was then finally destroyed.”
Penelope said...@ 14 November, 2014 04:00
ReplyDelete" Perhaps Kremlin is still trying to keep open the road to rapprochment with the West. Madness! They should be trying to win the info warfare. "
In my opinion the greatest published joke is the one which starts "We hold these truths to be self evident ...",a framing exercise in logical sleight of hand attempting to preclude questioning and challenge.
Evidence is evaluated on the basis of available data and purpose, and hence is subject to the dangers of framing.
Framing limits perception sometimes to the point of blindness.
Your use of "the Kremlin", "the West", "should" and "winning" are examples of framing.
Encouragement of framing is a way of affecting opponents.
Another practice to be encouraged is the filling of information lacunae with speculation, speculation in such instances containing a high component of presumption/prejudgement/prejudice - a type of framing.
Doubt can be a catalyst, hypotheses can be tested with rigour before presentation of data sets and methodologies for peer review, and silence valued for its propensity to limit wild good chases and obfuscations.
Perhaps paying regard to Ulysses would prove beneficial, although some appear to place a level of confidence in Cicero and his cui buono, which can also be used in
obfuscation.
At its simplest I read that Ulysses not only gained from his journey but also returned home, but in Cicero's case I read it didn't turn out well.
I would love Putin to "take away" his Mistral from France during the G20-presumably it has been mostly payed for and is operational, and clearly NATO wants to steal it.Preventative theft?
ReplyDeleteYou know who is responsible for this? it is oblama the lier n thief!
ReplyDeleteLets not beat around the boosh with plausible deniabiality.
anonymous at 22:36
ReplyDelete"I for one am sick and tired of Russia holding out on evidence".
My arse, that's gross! Russia is the ONLY side that offered these radar plots. So what are these unidentified primary radar targets? Where did they come from and where did they land? It would be helpful if Kiev released the air traffic control radar data and radio tapes. Why don't they??
That makes me sick and tired!
Or how about the AWACS data from NATO? Nada - classified. Why?
Is there any way for Russia to demand more then they already did?
The western presstitutes are mute, all international organisations are blocking any investigation (the preliminary report from the Dutch is a big hoax) and recovering of the debris is hindered by ukrainian shelling and not going forward because of Donetsk authorities having the DPR-sign on the agreement and that's a no-go for the Dutch. It pisses me off!
No BUK missile was used from either side. Have you seen a BUK M1 missile fired?
ReplyDeleteIf the Airliner is 10km in the sky.....a BUK missile fired at an angle would travel approx 15km to hit the plane!
The BIG clue is the thick white vapor trail it leaves all the way to the target.
On a summer's day with little wind......that vapor trail remains in the sky for about 10-15 mins before it dissipates (this is after the Plane has been hit).
Not a single person saw a vapor trail, not a single photograph or video of a vapor trail emerged from either side of the front lines. A vapor trail like that would have been seen from a such wide area..... and from people from both fighting factions.
Secondly local residents interviewed all stated that they either heard or saw a 2nd Aircraft in the area.....before it broke off. BBC Russia has the interviews on film, before they edited out. Original was recorded and loaded onto YouTube
YouTube videos to watch :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDXScnEKaP0 (BUK M2 missile being fired)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSXMhaFntrU (BUK M1 Missile fired)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa_R2NA1txc (BBC Russia interviews with locals before being omitted.)
So now people only get Gold for war? China and India then must be on a war footing as well since they buy a lot more than Russia. India has over 20,000 tons but all held by individuals, China around 8000+10000 tons as well. And when things crash there will be only Gold left standing for global trade. And we will surely hear a lot of moaning and yelling about faults.
ReplyDeletePutin stockpiles gold as Russia prepares for economic war
Russia has taken advantage of lower gold prices to pack the vaults of its central bank with bullion as it prepares for the possibility of a long, drawn-out economic war with the West.
The latest research from the World Gold Council reveals that the Kremlin snapped up 55 tonnes of the precious metal - far more than any other nation - in the three months to the end of September as prices began to weaken.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/commodities/11226240/Putin-stockpiles-gold-as-Russia-prepares-for-economic-war.html
Saker,
ReplyDeleteDoes this information rule out the possibility that some rebels were trying to target the mystery military aircraft in the area, and brought down the civilian airliner instead?
Masoud
I was online when the MH17 went down, and within the hour, local people from the villages nearby were uploading
ReplyDeletepictures, some were particularly sad...two young women,dressed in pastel coloured short sleeve tops and skirts,
lying like broken dolls.
These were taken from a distance perhaps 50 ft,but clearly showed their seats nearby..and I can only imagine the
sheer terror of those poor passengers last moments!!.
Peter Haisenko, a german aviation expert [ex Lufthansa pilot] did an excellent piece of analysis,
supported by the first OSCE monitor to arrive[a Canadian who spoke Ukranian] who also said the
cockpit showed signs of very heavy machine gun fire.[it did! from both sides]
Peter Haisenko did a follow up piece after the black boxes were given up and later it was claimed
that there was very little to hear!!.
Rubbish he said, there is always noise in the cockpit, it is never silent ever!...this is so.
My theory goes like this......
The flight crew receive directions to change course and descend to 31,000ft ,any reason can be given,
no reason to doubt the air trafic controller.....
The air traffic controller says...
"there is a war going on so we are sending you an escort of two fighters OK?"......everthing said on tape!!
the pilot complies and once at level flight, places the aircraft back on autopilot.
The single 'BUK' in the area transmits targeting location to the Ukranian Sukhoi's one of which fires an
air to air missile at one engine.....immediately the plane turns[no balancing thrust] and slows drastically.
The Sukhoi's close in... [pilots say "WTF"] ...and they shred the cockpit from each side.....
30 mm cannon shells hits would clearly be picked up by the cockpit voice recorder box
before the "massive decompression" and "high velocity objects" ..that was reported weeks
after the BRITISH had the boxes !.
The civilian black boxes, go from NAF hands to a Malaysian Colonel ... to Dutch Military.. to British Military
and then to Farnborough in the UK....does that sound kosher to anyone ??
we will never ever hear from the tapes of air traffic again... and where is Carlos Bucca?
He was the air traffic controller tweeting about the two fighters moving in,while the SBU were seizing the
tapes and removing all the staff from the tower [change of shift]... yeah right !!.
Does he even exist anymore?... twitter account is now closed,but no friends asking about him?
no family either ??,when nothing is written or spoken,we have a cast iron proof that all contacts are
gagged.
If something walks like a duck,talks like a duck,it's probably a duck!
I find Kiev guilty as charged!
What is interesting is that as Oil prices are dropping, natural gas prices are shooting higher. Although correcting right now it is still much higher than the lows reached since june. So first they crashed the gas prices and then went after oil prices. But with big deals with China, gas prices rebounded. Lets see how much longer they can control the pries. Once JPM runs out of oil stored in tankers to dump into the cash markets, prices will rebound. I was wondering why JPM was was hording so much oil on old oil tankers out in the seas.
ReplyDeleteBut it is now pretty much in the open that Central banks, especially the FED is controlling the price of everything.
Listen to this jerk, Poroshenko, in a recent speech:
ReplyDelete"Our children will go to school. Their children will be sitting in basements."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVIDR9JSPFs
He sounds very intense too.
Left unsaid: "...because we will be bombing them."
The Kiev government has to be the biggest collection of assholes in memory.
Russia must continue sticking it to the West, it's fun watching them squirm.
ReplyDeleteTo Russian and Serbian readers in Australia
ReplyDeletehttp://www.aukazak.com.au/news/kazaki-avstralii-zhdut-putina-na-sammite-g20-v-brisbene/
Please, let us know how it went.
The submarine in swedish archipelago is " identified". Sweden now have "proof" and everyone who wants Sweden to join NATO are peddling the russophobia again.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19858480.ab
Even if it turns out to be a russian vessel, and even if you add the alleged [russian] transgressions in swedish airspace, it must be seen in the context of NATO enchroachment right up to russian borders.Sweden allows NATO AWACS in their airspace. Guess what those planes are up to? If Russia is sending a message to Sweden it will serve the NATOist, but at the same time it will serve as deterrence by letting Sweden and NATO know that THIS IS SERIOUS! Afterall both Russia US/NATO have contingency plans vis a vis Sweden. Both have scenarios for strategic warfare.
Military Studies @ArmedResearch · 32 mins 32 minutes ago
ReplyDeleteBREAKING: #Ukraine Army still hold #Avdeevka. #Givi lost 10 KIA, 10 WIA this AM at #Donetsk Airport. Taking Avdeevka today unrealistic.
0 replies . 1 retweet 0 favourites
Excellent interview with economist Michael Hudson delineating Obama's massive fail at the APEC summit
ReplyDeletePresident Putin Pledges to Increase Trade with China and Asia to Rebuck Sanctions - YouTube
IMHO Cassandra @ 14 November, 2014 06:20 has it exactly right. The Russians know the U.S. would launch a first strike if it could. For example, I remember an article in the American MIC weekly Aviation News & Space Technology, shortly after the break-up of the USSR, about the development of space-borne lasers to shoot down any remaining Russian ICBM's. The article estimated 12-15 years would be needed (e.g., about now), after which the U.S. would control the world, stated more or less in those terms. The space-borne lasers haven't panned out so far, but the intent was there even at the very lowest point of Russian power, to obliterate it ASAP. All the subsequent statements by Brzezinski, Thatcher, Albright, Hillary, et al, about how Russia needs to be disarmed and divided, to "make its resources available to everyone" (i.e., seize them) only lends credence to it. If the U.S. thought it could prevail, it would attack, maybe even sooner if a crazy like Hillary came to power.
ReplyDelete"Further, RT used to be a great comment site where enormous numbers of people wd tell the truth that RT avoided. ...all changed sortly after Minsk, too. Now, nothing really useful escapes censorship, you can't site articles, etc."
ReplyDeleteI cant really agree with you. 5-10 % of my posts ARE censored (a bit explicit posts or long ones usually) but I regularly post citations there.
The amount of Trolling for Shekels© on RT is exhausting, though..
The anonymous raises an extremely important point here. Surely Russian intelligence must have decisive evidence about 9/11. Revealing it would give a crushing blow to the Zionazis. We should demand Putin to act or give our support to the Russian any Russian willing to act on this.
ReplyDeleteCheck this, a photo of an aircraft attack on this MH17.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.gazeta.ru/social/news/2014/11/14/n_6651677.shtml
Alexey
Actually, www.niqnaq reproduces the photos of tv channel no 1 and the reports of a specialist, on the satellite photos showing the approach of the Ukr jet, and still the path of a rocket while MD 17 has its wings bursting. Provided by some George Bilt, a present to Madman Abbot and cronies.i wonder what Russia will do know with the evidence. Let unexposed seems untenable.
ReplyDeleteActually, www.niqnaq reproduces the photos of tv channel no 1 and the reports of a specialist, on the satellite photos showing the approach of the Ukr jet, and still the path of a rocket while MD 17 has its wings bursting. Provided by some George Bilt, a present to Madman Abbot and cronies.i wonder what Russia will do know with the evidence. Let unexposed seems untenable.
ReplyDeleteThe smoking gun taken by a satellite and exposed in Channel 1, Russia
ReplyDeletehttp://niqnaq.wordpress.com/
A SATELLTE IMAGE OF THE DESTRUCTION OF MH17 BY A MiG19 UKRAINIAN FIGHTER HAS BEEN UNVEILED !!!
ReplyDeletehttp://lifenews.ru/news/145022
END OF SPECULATIONS
here, the original disclosure of the satellital photos of the downing of MH17 as appeared in Channel 1. Ru
ReplyDeletehttp://www.1tv.ru/news/leontiev/271824
Grabbed "in fraganti" as said in Italian, the smoking gun itself
Hello from “Odnako” (analytical program “However” – RB)! At the disposal of Channel One was sensational picture, presumably made by a foreign satellite spy in the last seconds of flight Malaysian Boeing over Ukraine. On the eve of the most important meetings of world leaders at the summit of G20 in Australia, the story of the death of the passengers of this flight is more than relevant. The frame speaks in favor of the version, which in the West is almost never heard. It is known that at the summit in Brisbane, Australian Prime Minister Abbott is threatening to ask our President in the rigid form a question about Malaysian Boeing. We will try to facilitate his task. Back in August, the Russian Union of Engineers issued its report on the possible causes of the crash, which received fairly widespread in the media and the Internet. Experts conducted a detailed analysis of all available information from all sources, produced technical calculations and elaborated version of causes of death “Boeing”. The conclusion of the experts was that the only technically possible version was the destruction of the Malaysian airliner with a missile and gun armament another plane. Pay attention to one point in the report is the absence of any credible evidence of the start of the missiles “ground-to-air”. Start “Buk” is accompanied by a fiery cloud, a deafening roar that can be heard within a radius of up to 10 km, and inversion followed which is clearly observed in the sky for up to 10 minutes. In short, there was most likely no “Buk”, no start from the ground. In the presence of district disaster dozens of professional observers from all sides and thousands unprofessional, no one has seen or recorded. While the aircraft was seen and recorded. And it was definitely not Russian planes. The arguments of the experts were heard on the Internet, the report was translated into English and German. First Vice-President of the Russian Union of Engineers Ivan Andrievsky said:
ReplyDeleteWhen we began to receive a large amount of information, among which was a different material, engineering calculations, and ultimately on Nov 12, we received this. “I fully agree with the results of your analysis of the causes of the crash of the Boeing,” says the man who presented himself as a graduate of MIT, Aviaexport with twenty years of experience, George Bilt. “The Boeing was hit by a pursuing fighter jet. First, the crew fired from a cannon, then the cab was struck by an air-to-air missile, then the right engine and right wing were struck by a missile with thermal homing system.” The photo which is clearly evident in the launch of the rocket from under the left wing fighter exactly at the cockpit, was attached to the email. On the terrain, weather conditions, the dimensions of the aircraft shot fully consistent with the circumstances of the accident. We saw a satellite image taken with not a very high orbit. And such images are usually made for general intelligence air and ground space. In accordance with the coordinates specified in the picture, we can assume that the picture was taken by a UKUSA satellite. We undertook a detailed analysis of this picture and no signs of tampering were found.
All versions should be considered, including the proverbial “Buk”. The person who sent the picture, showing how the MiG-29 kills passenger “Boeing”, whoever he was, of course, professional. In order to forge this requires even more professionalism than to access such information. Lord, you have these pictures! Or others! Show them, finally! Hands on the table! Because at the moment there is every reason to believe that the committed state crimes by those who destroyed the plane deliberately and cynically. And those who consciously and cynically hides it with exhaustive information. Goodbye from “Odnako”!
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1898627.html
ReplyDeletelatest from cassad. check it out in Russian or through google translate. satellite pics -- hi-res ones offline or broken for now - mentions wikileaks.
followup however some of cassad's comments distrust the source of the story, one says:
ReplyDeleteFirst channel and M. Leontiev himself enjoyed an unfortunate reputation, even in Russia, few believe them. The situation is aggravated by the fact that the media and other Russian officials have not picked up the first channel stuffing, but because sneeze Leontiev proved by cash.
https://pp.vk.me/c619325/v619325375/1af18/XaI60LcXqFY.jpg
ReplyDeleteand better quality
http://obkon.ucoz.com/_fr/14/0162309.jpg
ReplyDeleteNew and good evidence of a sub has been found, but no country is being accused.
This Swedish article has a lot of information about suspected subs in Swedish waters over the years. The minks are explained. There is a testimony from a Sovjet marine of dead servicemen and evidence of a damaged Sovjet sub being spotted after one incident.
The water of the Baltic has different layers making it ideal for subs to hide and exercise. The archipelago is even more suitable. There are thousands of small islands and a sub can hide between them. It is suspected Sovjet and, some say, NATO minisubs entered the archipelago to test new subs and train the crew. The archipelago is much safer than the open sea.
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/dokument/ex-overbefalhavaren-om-katt-och-ratta-leken/
several here got this info up posted from other sources well before me, but in re-reading it in detail see this interesting part in the COMMENTS below article!
ReplyDeleteOn March 8, 2014, MH370 was remotely commandeered. The following day, Abel Danger Global Private Intel posted a youTube titled BOEING UNINTERRUPTIBLE AUTOPILOT. On 29 March ADGPI expressed, in writing, that if MAS did not expose the existence of the BUAP they should expect another ‘explosive event’ NLT 1900/17Jul14. MH17 went down around 1730/17Jul.
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/is-this-a-satellite-photo-of-flight-mh17-being-shot-down-by-a-ukrainian-fighter-jet/
Those are not photos from orbit. The relationship between size of aircraft and ground features is all wrong. Photo either fake or taken from perhaps 40000 ft.
ReplyDeleteHere is something everyone might find very interesting. A supposed HD photo of MH-17 getting shot down.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc3_1415985472
Anonymous said: If the Russian military has radar evidence, what would be their reason for not sharing it?
ReplyDeleteI think Saker covered this adequately in his post - Russia and the US have agreed things they do and don't do - revealing intelligence info is one such thing.
However, I have said on other posts and will repeat it here (slightly modified) that the Russians should be talking to the victims families in Holland. Russian Insider post: http://russia-insider.com/en/politics_ukraine_media_watch_society/2014/11/12/09-42-58pm/dutch_are_angry_about_their_governments
makes it clear why.
If Saker is correct then Russia won't contact the victim's relatives but it may be worth the relatives either singly or en mass contacting the Russian Embassy in Holland and demanding to know what the Russians know.
There may be a possibility that they will be told verbally what happened if not supplied with any documentation. This would at least give the victim's relatives something firm to act on.
If any reader of this blog knows a victim's relative then please suggest this course of action for them to consider.
If it wasn't for the victim's relatives of the Lockerbie downing working endless for the truth there wouldn't have been any progress let alone a conviction. It now seems that a similar determination is building with the families of tyhe victims of MH17.
I think this will prove to be a fake, the origin is somewhat dubious and questions on good blogs are already being raised.
ReplyDeleteHowever there are 2 simple questions that would go a long way to clarifying what really happened.
Has any debris from a buk missile been found at the crash site?
Do post-mortems of the crew and passengers give us any shrapnel consistent with a buk attack?
Both of these questions could be answered quickly, especially evidence from the post-mortems which must have now been carried out.
I have read very little about the results of the post-mortems, have I missed something?
W, I also read an article debunking the Russian Radar Presentation as total bunk.
ReplyDeleteYes it is partially bunk, as someone who has worked with radars systems, I was left blaffed by some of the screen shots of the radar images. Definitely DID NOT a true 'target' as per civil radar images. BUT it all needs cross checking with secondary radar systems, and yeap coz they are military & in Russia, we will not be privledged to see them.
I was left unconvined by the Russian presentation on MH17
they left some holes in their evidence.
ummmm
ReplyDeleteMIG 19 , about 45 years ago maybe
DESTRUCTION OF MH17 BY A MiG19 UKRAINIAN
"MH 17 has its wings bursting."
ReplyDeletein mid-air???
Baloney, sorry but just baloney info.
There are literally 100s of photos of the cras sites, with BOTH engines located as they would have been normally. Suffice to say that the main part of that fuselage landed on terra firma pretty much in one pieces.
I'm not saying this just for the sake of it, but hundreds of civilians had their lives cut short.
Z said...
ReplyDeleteThe submarine in swedish archipelago is " identified". Sweden now have "proof" and everyone who wants Sweden t
And the proof is totally totally AMATEURISH, in fact so much so, they have taken a leaf out of NATO's book, on being economical with the truth.
Check out the unsourced, undated, non gelocated sonar & the artist's impression of the track:
http://lepontduhadu.blogspot.fr/2014/10/blog-mad-stockholm-submarine-story-or.html
I think this will prove to be a fake, the origin is somewhat dubious and questions on good blogs are already being raised.
ReplyDeleteHowever there are 2 simple questions that would go a long way to clarifying what really happened.
Has any debris from a buk missile been found at the crash site?
Do post-mortems of the crew and passengers give us any shrapnel consistent with a buk attack?
Both of these questions could be answered quickly, especially evidence from the post-mortems which must have now been carried out.
I have read very little about the results of the post-mortems, have I missed something?
A quick explanation on the radar image, which is known as a secondary surveillance radar, linked in with ADS-B. Aircraft transmit messages containing information such as identity, location, and velocity. This what you see on the screenshot.
ReplyDeletecontinuous purple shows the current historic track,
and the trail of light blue dots shows the last few reported positions, as automatically interrogated by the civil transponder system, Mode C/ ADS-B.
The next line is the projected flight trajectory, as interpreted by the system, since the aircraft are fitted with squawks.
You won't see all flight movements in area since it will have been 'filtered' to only include the relevant Flight Levels, FLs. For instance MH 17 was at FL330
But you can see a lot of traffic in the air corridors "lanes", North/south is in Rostov area, called KANON.
Dear Saker, have a look at this, please.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.1tv.ru/news/leontiev/271824
The Channel1 photo of a Boeing with a fighter firing a missile at it is a FAKE.
ReplyDeleteThe high res photos have now been deleted but the airline sign on the top of the fuselage was in the wrong place. Not MH17.
JohninMK
ReplyDeletecardinal points said...
Z said...
And the proof is totally totally AMATEURISH, in fact so much so, they have taken a leaf out of NATO's book, on being economical with the truth.
http://lepontduhadu.blogspot.fr/2014/10/blog-mad-stockholm-submarine-story-or.html
My response. This is ridiculous and propagandistic. There was a sub in Swedish waters, not for the first time, and you are in denial. Look at the evidence, you don't even understand it. Do you think you understand Swedish hitech? How could you? Who taught you? Do you understand the language? Did you study at the military academy? How old are you? NOBODY has said it was Russian, it could have been a NATO sub.
With a mindset like that, you wouldn't last six month at the university. In fact, I would have kicked you out myself when I was active. I hate idiotic comments.
"Russia’s Channel One show satellite photo evidencing MH17 was downed by fighter jet"
ReplyDeletehttp://en.itar-tass.com/world/759835
to cardinal points:"I also read an article debunking the Russian Radar Presentation as total bunk."
ReplyDeletelink please?!
What is your point with the SSR?(secondary surveillance radar), your statement is unclear. If an aircraft doesn't activate its Transponder the Ground Radar can only show a Primary target. The release from Moscow is very conclusive to me.
What puzzles me with the alleged satellite photo is missing contrails or some blurring of the ground behind the engines, but I'm no expert in photographic Evaluation, only a bloody Air Traffic Controller...
Daniel Rich, given the hours analysing the technical information I find your 'fact' that I am swayed by the western MSM both insultng and ludicrous.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you could read my posts again and perhaps come up with a different view?
To others, the only scenario where an air-to-air R-60 I/R missile homed in on MH17 first is if all radio transmissions were blocked. Any such jamming would surely have been noticed.
I personally believe the most likely scenario is an SU-25/other Ukie fighter attack with cannon that shredded the cockpit area and disabled/killed the pilots followed by the R-60 and/or other air-to-air missiles. A ground to air missile such as the massive BUK is unlikely given the noise/long-lasting smoke trail not heard/seen by eye witnesses and wrong damage patttern.
Hi Saker,
ReplyDeleteFirstly thanks for all the good work you are doing on publishing the truth about MH17.
Could you please have an English translation done on this article from the Russian media (http://www.1tv.ru/news/leontiev/271824).
Thanks,
Colin
Saker,
ReplyDeleteThank you for not letting the details of this event be forgotten.
It is interesting that this subject is again being briefly addressed in the media, both Russian and Western (radio commentary heard Thursday). So, why now? Is one a response to the other? Or are they both responding to or anticipating something else? But this is politics, and I would like to examine more tangible details.
The screenshot in your post falls short of being “proof” of anything. Please, let us be more rigorous. If we accept that it is a genuine representation of Air Traffic Control radar, then it shows that other radar targets appeared near MH-17. These were probably aircraft, but of type(s) undeterminable by “primary” (skin paint) ATC radar. However, some additional information might be inferred from the radar data.
This is a computer generated display of a combination of radar and other data, including transponder and other information. Since it has been generated by a computer, its authenticity must be suspect. This is not a direct physical recording of physical data, which might be scrutinized to verify its authenticity. I’m not implying that this is a fake, but it must be acknowledged what this screenshot actually is.
Your differentiation between civilian (in this case ATC, i.e. government) and military radars is somewhat correct. However, more information might be available from this radar than you suggest, depending on what was actually recorded.
This type of radar uses frequencies that limit it to line of sight operation. This means that for this particular radar installation, the Russians have a very good idea what its minimum altitude limitation is in the vicinity of the unidentified targets. My recollection is that in their press briefing several months ago they showed a sequence of the target(s) appearing, then disappearing. An explanation for this is the aircraft(s) climbing above that minimum altitude, then descending below it. So, some altitude information and timing can be inferred.
This type of radar inherently must accurately measure radial velocity in order to function. That is how it excludes very much stronger returns that do not move. It also records a time sequence of positions. (Military radars may also measure target elevation, depending on design.) Together, all these produce a measure of the maneuvering of an uncooperative target. Unless an aircraft cooperates and identifies itself electronically, this is all the information any radar has to identify a target. So, a radar with this data alone will not be able to differentiate between types of aircraft capable of similar maneuvers.
Yet (in my imperfect recollection of their press briefing), the Russians suggested that the unidentified radar target(s) was an Ukrainian Su-25. Did they actually know this, or was their suggestion speculative? Could they have known this? If so, how?
One way the Russians could have used radar to identify the aircraft as being Ukrainian was to have tracked it from its origin by using other radars capable of doing so (able to surveil lower altitudes). These could have been either airborne, or at different ground locations other than this one. Airborne seems to be the most likely.
To identify it as a Su-25, use of other methods would have been necessary. These could include radio traffic, or other intelligence information. Is it plausible that these would have been available? Not only is it plausible, but it is highly likely. The Russians were probably monitoring everything.
But what if their suggestion that this radar target was an Ukrainian Su-25 was just their speculation, or even disinformation? Then the possibility exists that the radar target was not Ukrainian, and/or it was not a Su-25. How does this change the discussion?
cont...
ReplyDeleteIf it was some other, more air to air combat capable type of aircraft, then the interceptor could have accomplished the intercept autonomously using its onboard radar, it could have more reliably engaged the target at the desired location, and it could have used a suite of weapons for the attack that was different from those that a Su-25 was limited to using. This latter point suggests that a heavier, more damaging missile warhead might have been used to produce the observed damage to the forward fuselage of MH-17, instead of Su-25 cannon fire. This seems to be plausible despite the assumption that a Su-25 was used. A detailed forensic examination of the wreckage might better identify the weapon(s). In lieu of that, or other information, we should consider all the possibilities.
Returning to examine the Su-25 hypothesis, much discussion has been made about the published service ceiling of the Su-25, and how that limitation would have made it unsuitable for such an intercept mission. In my opinion, this would have been a minor issue, and somewhat of a “red herring”. A much more serious issue would have been its speed limitation. Aircraft that are not designed to fly supersonically have what is known as a critical mach number. This is the speed at which mach buffet becomes severe and the aircraft cannot controllably fly faster. For the Su-25 this max speed is probably low compared to the desired speed for a reliable intercept, especially of a faster target.
Another limitation of the Su-25, less discussed, is its area surveillance capability. It being primarily a ground attack aircraft, it is not likely to have been outfitted with a long range air target acquisition radar. If this is the case, then target intercept information would have to come from some external source for a reliable engagement at a specific geographical location (assuming that was the objective). This would be particularly critical considering the speed limitation of the Su-25. What could the external source of information have been?
You have suggested that the surveillance radar of a Buk system was used to coordinate the attack. This is a possibility, however, it would require a cognizant missile crew. For such a crime, this would not be as desirable as having a single pilot in a single interceptor aircraft being the only one directly involved. Also, there would have been communications between the Buk system and the aircraft, and these probably would have been monitored.
Another external source of intercept information could have been Ukrainian ATC. They knew where MH-17 was at all times, and could have actively coordinated the attack by directly communicating the required information to the interceptor. Or, they could have indirectly passed similar information by discussing navigation points and times with MH-17 using the usual ATC communication radio frequencies, which an interceptor could monitor. ATC involvement could be one reason why recordings of those communications have disappeared.
Yet another external source of intercept information could have been ADS-B data, if it was being used. This system would have been broadcasting very accurate position, speed, heading, and altitude reports for MH-17, and these could have been monitored by anyone with a receiver and within range, including an interceptor at low altitude.
Regardless of how the intercept was initiated, once the interceptor got above the clouds the attack could have been continued visually. It is quite easy to see a large transport aircraft from twenty miles or more, and military pilots are proficient at visual intercept maneuvers.
Finally, returning to the Russian press briefing, we must consider that the interceptor, if that was the radar target, was not Ukrainian, or did not originate from within Ukraine. After all, this is a possibility, although it is a big can of worms, and one no one has suggested untangling, yet.
How convenient for Z to forget to add this part of my comment before he went on his rant about my lack of competencies.
ReplyDelete"Check out the unsourced, undated, non gelocated sonar & the artist's impression of the track:"
It appears noondays perfectly & professionally acceptable not to put dates, times, scales, coordinates on images, just to try and "prove" a point. I know that today's MSN are pathetic but still for other people, it was a yardstick of professional integrity.
I am not the only one to make this kind of comment, even a former German general doubted sat images produced by NATO, on TV.
http://lepontduhadu.blogspot.fr/2014/11/video-former-nato-general-kujat-i-dont.html
If z had seen the blog posting cited, he would have seen the links to both the Swedish operating & the supposedly Dutch sub in the area.
Yours aye
Le Dahu
The Channel1 photo of a Boeing with a fighter firing a missile at it, seems to me a fake. The town under MH17 is Donetsk (Googlearth docet) so, the distance of the crash site (Hrabove) from the shooting point must be about 62 Km., too much for a severely damaged plane.
ReplyDeleteHi Saker,
ReplyDeleteDon't worry about my earlier request. I was able to translate it and I found the video on youtube and was able to use keepsubs.com on it.
Thanks.
The images debunked by these debunking experts
ReplyDeletehttps://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-this-photo-shows-a-ukraine-mig-29-shot-down-mh17.5107/
Main feature: cloud shapes in the supposed July 17 2014 picture being identical with clouds in Google earth in 2012....which kind of indicates where one part of the composite came from.
The image looks wrong to start with, as the supposed MH17 is in a clear sky, when all witnesses said it was IN CLOUDS when shot.
Satellites take single static shots, not video, so there cannot be a "path" showing for a missile, either.
The whole thing is nonsense. What we SHOULD be looking for is, what is happening that they want us to NOT see? what is this a diversion from?
Johann Schickeneder said...
ReplyDeleteto cardinal points:"I also read an article debunking the Russian Radar Presentation as total bunk."
Thanks Johann for responding. I found another website with better quality images so I've discarded the debunking article.
so here is the another link
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22759&st=20
What is your point with the SSR?(secondary surveillance radar), your statement is unclear. If an aircraft doesn't activate its Transponder the Ground Radar can only show a Primary target.
Yes sorry that's what I meant, but it didn't seem to seen to happen on the Moscow video, with respect to the new "target".
Moscow didn't even mention the possibility of seeing the plane disintegrating, and shown up via the PSR display. Why miss out this at briefing?
@anonymous..
ReplyDeleteYour reading comprehension is beyound retarded as is your inane rambling about "military" this and that "university" thing makes me chuckle "son"..
Do you even know what ellipses imply? Nowhere do I say that the sub is identified. I do create a a worst case scenario based on the official media narrative in Sweden. Other than that my little friend we have allegdly confirmed (notice the lack of ellipses) transgression by russian jets into swedish airspace. I simply posit a worst case scenario based on the official media narrative in Sweden. I even say that both Russia and US/NATO indeed have contingency plans for invasion implying that the sub might come from either block. The message [to Sweden] is clear if the sub originates from Russia Now go look at my post again instead of blurting out nonsense. That is all.
@Cardinal You do realise that you are answering the wrong post. The post you're refering is by some random anonymous.
Anonymous said .., 13 November, 2014 22:52
ReplyDeleteFocus can be a form of blindness ergo a lack of perception.
Anatoly Sobchak was important but not exclusive, which may illuminate some precipitations even in this blog.
Perhaps the best source of material re MH17 is http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/MH17
ReplyDeleteThere is some discussion on the radar screenshot here: http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/File_talk:MH17_Rostov_radar_MK.jpg
I am still wondering about the obviously fake photo. Was it leaked to distract from the radar info? Anything released by Russia now is going to meet with a great deal of understandable suspicion.
Z
ReplyDeleteI owe you an apology for NOT looking at the start of the message.
very sorry for that. I suppose we need rants such as his, to put it into perspective, evidently touched a raw nerve there.
thanks
Someone is still actively tying to prevent MH17 wreckage being picked up. Story from Russian photographer allowed to the scene
ReplyDeletewith the Dutch.
Passing by a large piece of one of the compartments "Boeing", we saw near him a huge blast crater, which was not yesterday. Apparently, Ukrainians, frightened by the news of a possible export remains liner, decided the night some powerful projectile to destroy this piece, but missed the mark by 50 meters....
http://msk.kp.ru/daily/26306/3184995/
No accident as there is no actual fighting around there.
Also they found a part of engine cowling, holed. At Petropavlivka, which is where other such parts and a broken fan blade were found originally.
I for myself am quite certain that MH-17 was indeed shot down with a Buk SA-11, by the Ukrainian Army.
ReplyDeleteWho? Poroshenko surely was not resposible, and may not even have been fully briefed about the operation. All he knew was there would be a "nasty surprise" for the "Separatists". That still leaves us with Kolomoyski & his Israeli friends, Yats, various rightwing militias, or somebody we do not even have on our radar.
How? According to Wikipedia, the Ukraine has 60 Buk systems operationnal. For Buk, it is a bit unclear what counts as a system, as normally a unit consists of several launching platforms together with long-range radars and mobile command posts , but a single launch platform can also be used autonomously in a pinch. This compares with parts of one system captured by the rebels, w/o C3I equipment, and according to Kiev in a state of disrepair.
Training Buk operators in a matter of days is out o9f the question.
Why? Soon after the crash of MH-17, the "terrorists" and their master Putin were blamed, first by Kiev's regime, and then by a sycophant Western press. Poroshenko's summer offensive would surely have offensed people in the west because of civilian casualties etc., but in view of the destruction, it was seen all right as a punishing action.
Where? The russian engineers stated that a Buk launch should have been witnessed, as it is impossible to be oversen or overheard. The problem is that investigations have concentrated only on rebel-held buks, as if the ukrainian army were out of the question from the start. At least 3 ukrainian Buk sites were operational and in range of MH-17 on July 17th. The Buk missile could have been mistaken by eyewitnesses for a military plane: what they saw, was something smaller and faster than the airliner, wich could have been the missile.
How exactly? We know Ukrainians are no monsters, so how could a ukrainian SAM-operator have pushed a button to send 300 people to their death? That's where Putin's plane comes into play. True, it did never fly above ukrainian airspace, but would every SAM-opreator know that? If he was told: look, there comes Putin, come on, shoot down the "Huylo", a professionally trained but politically misguided SAM operator could have pulled the trigger.
@Thomas
ReplyDeleteI doubt the Ukrainians fired a BUK missile, as the firing of missile can be heard several Km away...and the thick vapor trail would have been seen from both territories.....because at a minimum it would travel 15km. The vapor takes at least 10 mins to fully dissipate on a non-windy summer's day.
I still it was shot down deliberately by a Jet fighter..most likely Ukrainian.
The only option is an on-board bomb placed in Amsterdam....but I highly doubt that.